Anas Sarwar said Labour's main task in the referendum campaign was to "kill" separatism (a choice of words I objected to) because any second question would just play into Alex Salmond's hands. Electoral Reform chief Willie O'Sullivan entered the fray from the audience with news of an opinion poll in the Times today which found 59% support for a two question referendum and 37% support for a single question with only 4% undecided. Even amongst Labour supporters. But in the face of this information panellists and audience members kept using the same old arguments.
I haven't been to a Labour conference for years (other than to broadcast from them) and was very struck by the sloganising, prickliness and general lack of humour during the event. Mind you, I was a bit of an invited gatecrasher who probably spoke a bit more "robustly" than expected. Strangely though, Anas Sarwar who was most "on message"– became most relaxed with my woodpecker-like interruptions and made (but didn't develop) an interesting point. If you believe in the redistribution of wealth, then the Union allows redistribution from the south of England to Scotland. I know the SNP argue that actually, the net flow of cash is at least neutral (thanks to oil). But since there's a lot of uncertainty about Scotland's real economic health, this argument at least has the power to cast Westminster control in a positive, redistributive light. And it's true that in the short run devo plus or max might well just give Scotland the power to realise it can raise less tax per head than it currently gets as part of the UK payout. I'm happy to know where Scotland's real "equilibrium" lies – but I imagine many public sector, former Labour-voters now supporting the SNP -- won't.
Meanwhile I'm at the Lib Dem conference in Inverness about to participate in the same Law Society fringe meeting this time with me old mucker Lord Jim Wallace of wherever. I'm sure he'll feel less got at this time with three male Lib Dems and just me – after our last outing on TV when he was ambushed by three non Lib-Dem wummin!
Have also just written tomorrow's column for the Sunday Post arguing that no-one can take Labour's drive to recruit fresh-faced new talent as the MSPs and MPs of the future if Eric Joyce is allowed to stay in place till 2015. Falkirk once had a top-notch Labour candidate -- Denis Canavan. But he was rejected from New Labour's eligible candidate list in the first Scottish Parliament elections for being "off-message." Canavan stood as an Independent and won the highest majority of any MSP in 1999. It's ironic.
Falkirk was once represented by a respected man rejected by Labour and is now held by a broken man rejected by Labour. There's one way to demonstrate free-thinking, hard-working people come first in the modern Labour Party. Eric Joyce must find a new job -- now.
Probably too late to ask, but i'd be interested in Lord Tankerfull's opinion on the current Scotland Bill in the House of Lords. What does he make of the tinkering's of Messrs Foulkes et al and their suggestions for change ?
Foulkes wants to change Holyrood's name, from the Scottish Government to the 'Devolved Scottish Government' last I heard.
He also wants to impose a curfew on our First Minister meeting with foreign heads of state and governments. Alex Salmond should seek permission from Westminster first.
Lots more of these examples, but doesn't this just make a mockery of the unelected ermine wearers in the HoL with such crass amendments ?
Also, how is Ming getting on with the draft proposal for the Lib/Dems version of 'Home Rule/Devo - Lib'. After a hundred years of promise, have they actually got beyond writing the title ?
Posted by: tartanfever | March 03, 2012 at 11:49 AM
Foulkes is a bit like Cameron, the more he talks (spouts nonsense) the more a Yes vote becomes a reality.
I agree with Lesley on her last point. The Labour Party are not 'reforming themselves' for if they keep a person like Joyce as an MP.
Personally, I think the devolution word should be banned along with separitism. It is an anachronism from the 1970s. People who use the separatist jibe are just underlining they have not thought through their own position and have nothing to say of any value.
Posted by: Alasdair Reid | March 03, 2012 at 12:17 PM
It beats me to understand the commitment and support of the union by Scots who are in a position to know the real facts. They can easily and should recognise spin put about by the media and their party chiefs.
If they are ignoring the truth and thereby accept the misrepresenting spin as indeed the truth, that makes them primarily failing to represent their constituents' best interests.
It also points to another motivation and a personal agenda that can only be seen as self-serving if it doesn't serve the constituents they were elected to properly represent.
Shaving mirrors are clearly not used much.
Posted by: Barontorc | March 03, 2012 at 05:27 PM
Labour's commitment and support of Scotland should be clear to everyone. After all it was Labour who worked hard to bring devolution to Scotland in the first place. Labour are committed to devolution and ensuring that Scotland stays strong in the face of the challenges that exist.
Independence is a massive gamble, a shot in the dark, after all there are so many unanswered questions piling up about what an independent Scotland would look like, it just isn't funny any more. We have statements on the currency and EU membership with no actual guarantees from the other partners in these ventures. Merely speculation from "advisers" who are linked to the SNP in some way. Or the announcement on NATO and then a change of direction. The oil fund U turn. And lets not forget, getting into bed with Murdoch while Leveson is still going on. It is beginning to look like the once sure footed leader of the SNP is struggling.
On top of that there is the speculation about what will actually happen to the SNP whether the vote is yes or no. Among those I speak to, many are very concerned about having the queen as head of state and cuts in corporation tax.
Oh, and for Alasdair, Eric Joyce is currently suspended from the party and if convicted will likely be expelled. If he does not receive more than a year custodial, which would seem unlikely, he looks like he will want to serve out the rest of his term as an independent MP.
Posted by: spacecadet | March 03, 2012 at 07:35 PM
Spacecadet - As far as the informed side of things go - the Labour Government and Tony Blair were dragged in a hissing fit by the EC to ensure Scotland was given devolution. You seem an open minded person so don't swallow the propaganda your fed by the MSM. Check out the Realm of Scotland website to get the true and irrefutable facts. It's high time the real facts and truth was told about the UK handling of Scotland over the last 50 years. The McCrone Report hidden away under the 30 year rule, The Devolution Cabinet Papers hidden away under the 30 year rule, by Jack Straw and continued today - ask yourself - why, it is that Scotland - an equal and joint partner of the Union with England was denied these papers, why was this information locked away and denied to the Scottish people? When you've informed yourself on these issues - tell me again that, "...Labour's commitment and support of Scotland should be clear to everyone.....". I don't think so, indeed I know so!
Posted by: Barontorc | March 03, 2012 at 07:58 PM
@spacecadet
"Labour's commitment and support of Scotland should be clear to everyone. After all it was Labour who worked hard to bring devolution to Scotland in the first place. Labour are committed to devolution and ensuring that Scotland stays strong in the face of the challenges that exist."
That is all very dubious to say the least. There is evidence that Labour was forced into implementing devolution by events in Europe. The recent ruling not to release cabinet papers adds suspicion to what actually went on when devolution was being discussed and decisions made by the Labour government.
Posted by: James II | March 03, 2012 at 08:07 PM
Bartontorc I have no idea what the MSM is. It is clearly an acronym for something. Anyway, I do my own research and using the sound principles I have developed over the years will always seek out the truth of an argument.
Your suggestion to look at the Realm of Scotland was interesting as you had previously suggested that other information I had read must have been propaganda. On opening the homepage I noticed links to newsnet scotland. This will be this site's downfall, Newsnet is a ludicrous attempt to conceal an SNP blog as a "news" outlet. It is the work of a few individuals and most ridiculously is hosted in Denmark, instead of putting any money into the Scottish economy.
Realm of Scotland clearly is playing the same game of supporting the SNP's case for an independent Scotland and guess where it is hosted? No?
Slough, which with a quick check of the map you will find is in England. However that is probably time as it is where the SNP's fiscal policy will be run from anyway if their plans to use Sterling are to be believed.
Posted by: spacecadet | March 03, 2012 at 08:28 PM
spacecadet - dear, oh dear, oh dear - you can lead a horse to water, but!
So be it, remain in isolate ignorance - or seek the truth - no matter where it's hosted from. Analyse your response, deconstruct your response and then do the decent thing - inform yourself - myth is unfortunately, myth. I can do no more for you , ta-ta!
Posted by: Barontorc | March 03, 2012 at 08:54 PM
Bartontorc
Ha ha ha. Like all Nats you are blinkered and can only see one side of the story as is clear from your response. You see points of view, different from yours, as ignorance. The other sad truth is that none of you have addressed the growing number of unanswered questions as per my original remarks.
Is everyone waiting for their glorious leader to decide where he stands before he tells you how to think?
Posted by: spacecadet | March 03, 2012 at 09:16 PM
@spacecadet the following link is from the Council of Europe, Congress of Local and Regional Government (CLRG)in 1997. The Council of Europe had stated in other documents that adherence to the principles of the CLRG was a necessary condition of continued membership of the Council of Europe and noted in paragraph 11 of this document that it
"Considers that major problems of local democracy exist in the following countries: Croatia, Bulgaria, Latvia, Moldova, Ukraine and the United Kingdom; "
https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?Ref=RES%281997%29058&Language=lanEnglish&Ver=original&Site=Congress&BackColorInternet=C3C3C3&BackColorIntranet=CACC9A&BackColorLogged=EFEA9C
Posted by: Lochaber | March 03, 2012 at 11:50 PM
@Lochaber - All very good but this was written about local govt and the reason it came under the spotlight was due to the Tories killing off Regional councils in 1994 and replacing them with much caller unitary authorities. Their concern was that these much smaller authorities would be dominated by central govt and would not have the strength to stand up to changes made by central govt or borrow large amounts for capital investment etc.
This has nothing to do with independence. If the Nats are considering using this as some kind of rationale then why would they be pursuing a single police force and talking about bringing education under central govt control as that would fly in the face of this argument.
Posted by: spacecadet | March 04, 2012 at 02:14 AM
Just by the way Malcolm Chisholm has been in touch to say he DOES support Devo Plus - as a stance. Just not as a question on the ballor paper.
Posted by: lesley riddoch | March 04, 2012 at 06:29 PM